HP

Correct. This course of action is not about giving up on growth, but it also may not be effective in the long term. We will have to consider a paradigm shift sooner or later, but we might gain some time with transformations of this kind in the meantime.

FA

The moment we pass from rising sea levels to getting our feet wet is crucial. If we wait until then to come to our senses, it will be too late, sadly. We must act fast; philosophical debates, political debates, and academic efforts are very important, but we must also act fast.

HP

There is something else that we need to bear in mind: When discussing the paradigm shift, we need to consider the aspect of injustice as well, and of course there is great injustice now. People who bear the brunt of climate change are pushing for a faster transformation, a more radical transformation. This may have certain consequences in speeding things up. Climate change may not be the most pressing issue for Canada today, whereas island nations or countries like Bangladesh are suffering much more severely. Anyone in that position, anyone suffering seriously from this injustice, is going to insist on a much quicker transformation, as they already are; they’re demanding it. And that’s going to speed up the transformation.

BE

Injustice and other ethical questions are clearly quite complicated. There is another side to the coin: Some are asking, “Why should we pay the price? What’s the hurry?” Isn’t that the case? The issue of how the burden will be shared is truly complicated. Some say, “Developed countries enjoyed all the benefits, and now we’re having to pay the price.” How to share this burden among generations is another ethical question. Again, there are some who say, “Why should we make sacrifices to save future generations? They’ll be much richer than we are! And they’ll probably have far better technological advantages a few years or decades down the line.”

FA

The idea is that a solution will turn up.

BE

There are uncertainties, too. One view is that technology is advancing and solutions will be found, so there’s no need to trouble ourselves. Something else I’ve noticed that’s quite interesting is that different discount rates lead to different calculations of costs! Some people claim that there’s no need to do anything, and others demand we act at once; it completely depends on how they do the math.

FA

You’re right, it’s possible to come up with very different results by tinkering with the discount rate. One discount rate will indicate that you need to act immediately and another that you can relax. But there’s also the injustice aspect, as you mentioned. When you’re ready to say, “We’ve had our meal; Waiter! The bill please,” who’s going to pay for what, and how? And of course some diners have been at the table since the 19th century, isn’t that so?

BE

Of course.

FA

In summary, we’re highlighting the three dimensions of environmental problems. One is justice. Two is short sightedness. Three is the matter of how to make decisions together. All three are interlinked. So, how might we best approach all three dimensions on the local, national, and international level? The first way, of course, is through education. We keep going on about the climate, but then at home, for example, we throw away the dead battery of our kid’s toy without thinking more about it. This is an opportunity for educating people.

BE

Now that you’ve mentioned education, it seems strange that none of these international agreements include requirements for education, because everything boils down to education at the end of the day.

Education creates awareness and helps you move forward, otherwise much of what you do is wasted. The used up battery was a great example, and there are countless others. In some countries, you can’t see a single piece of litter on the ground. Stroll on long, broad beaches as far as the eye can see, and you won’t see a single plastic bottle for miles, nor a scrap of rubbish. Obviously, there’s been no army of garbage collectors. The fact is that no one litters; people don’t, because they learn not to at school. So, unless our education systems include sustainability, the environment, and climate, how do we progress, how do we solve related issues? I wonder if the commitments countries make to education are effective and adequate. Because, unless I’m wrong, half the countries include no such plans in their education programs. It seems impossible to me that no one has thought of it. “Education, education, education” is a mantra everyone knows. A formula that’s always valid, and always confronts us.